https://www.posetteforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3553
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turtlecroc
Monday, 01 February 2010, 12:50 AM

Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Hey, i just discovered this forum, probably bec. i just started using Poser again. I've had it for years but never really got into it, i think because of problems like this.....

Okay, i'm trying to do animation.  I start w/ the default figure and shorten the legs, e.g. to make a dwarf-type but with a big barrel chest, add an animation (e.g. lift weight from the default set), and when i play it, the guy's feet move up and down like crazy, i.e. relative to the ground plane. This apparently is related to the feet moving up off the ground when i shortened the legs. 

I get the feeling this is either a simple (read: dumb) question, or it's impossible. I looked around this forum and google and can't find anything, though i'm sure it's out there. Nor does the Poser 4 PDF manual address this obviously very basic issue. That is, HOW do you apply an animation to a figure w/ shortened legs and have the feet stay put..?! THanks.


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ahjah
Monday, 01 February 2010, 11:10 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Hi, and welcome turtlecroc :welcome:
I myself didn't ever work with Poser4 (started with P2, P3, and then made the big step to P6/7). Also I only do stills, so I'm not much help animation related. Might be a problem with the IK of the legs as well as with the center position of the character (i.e. the hip)
We'll have to wait till the "animators" show up. Maybe tda42 can help :)


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maovin
Monday, 01 February 2010, 03:11 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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does your default figure do the same foot stomping action as the dwarf figure?
I never did too much anima but I hope that question up above helps you and also you might need to play with the animation graph or set the walk designer at a slower pace...
Now if that doesn't help there's always posing your dwarf one frame at a time...

hey have fun!


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Tormie
Monday, 01 February 2010, 05:28 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Hi turtlecroc and welcome to Posetteforever :welcome:

:mmmh: I don't remember how was working with animations in Poser 4, you probably lost the occasion to have Poser 5 for free, that was some time ago. This is to say that in the later versions of the program there are more options and commands. As far as I know it doesn't matter how the figure is made, but everything stands in the "key frames", if you start the frame 1 with the foot on the ground and end in frame 15 with the foot raised up, between the two frames the program creates a "curve" that you can manage in the animation window (I don't know if it's present in poser 4), the shape of this curve can be of different types, btw you can "brake" it for example at frame 15 setting a "key frame" at that point, so you brake the curve.
Based on what you described, you should add more key frames to the animation, You can even try some of those animation poses, there should be something in the default installation of Poser 4 and modify them for the shape of your particular character. Here on Posetteforever there is a nice :heartbeat: character that Andreas (Ahjah) made some times ago, it's made of joint balls, I think that some exercises using her could be useful.


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tda42
Monday, 01 February 2010, 07:19 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Not really sure what is happening. Can you make a picture of it. I think it might have something to do with the bones or IE Chain. :mmmh:


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turtlecroc
Wednesday, 03 February 2010, 02:27 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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[quote user="tda42" post="41932"]Not really sure what is happening. Can you make a picture of it. I think it might have something to do with the bones or IE Chain. :mmmh:[/quote]

It's hard to make a picture since it's animation-related, but if you start up Poser w/ the default guy, then shorten his thighs and lower legs (to about 50%), and then add the ~weightlift animation (under one of the pose menus), then play it, you'll definitely see what i mean. The feet keep going down until they're noticeably below ground level.  

There are white outlines of the feet at ground level when you start shortening the legs...is that related to the IK?  It's as if the animation values assume default leg length, or perhaps they use absolute values relative to the hip which seems to be the center of the figure. 

The same thing happens if you load default guy, then change his proportions to toddler or infant and add the weight-lift animation (or any animation in which the hip goes up/down relative to the feet.....)


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rayera
Wednesday, 03 February 2010, 06:51 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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[quote user="turtlecroc" post="41934"][quote user="tda42" post="41932"]Not really sure what is happening. Can you make a picture of it. I think it might have something to do with the bones or IE Chain. :mmmh:[/quote]

It's hard to make a picture since it's animation-related, but if you start up Poser w/ the default guy, then shorten his thighs and lower legs (to about 50%), and then add the ~weightlift animation (under one of the pose menus), then play it, you'll definitely see what i mean. The feet keep going down until they're noticeably below ground level.  

There are white outlines of the feet at ground level when you start shortening the legs...is that related to the IK?  It's as if the animation values assume default leg length, or perhaps they use absolute values relative to the hip which seems to be the center of the figure. 

The same thing happens if you load default guy, then change his proportions to toddler or infant and add the weight-lift animation (or any animation in which the hip goes up/down relative to the feet.....)[/quote]

I've try to reproduce the error in my P4 but it works fine, just loaded the default guy (brown trousers, red shirt) set thigh and shin Y scale to 50% then loaded the Lift_85 animation pose and everything goes as it should  :mmmh:  maybe if you give us an step by step of your procedure without missing a thing we coul help  :wink:


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turtlecroc
Wednesday, 03 February 2010, 09:08 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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[quote user="rayera" post="41935"]...
I've try to reproduce the error in my P4 but it works fine, just loaded the default guy (brown trousers, red shirt) set thigh and shin Y scale to 50% then loaded the Lift_85 animation pose and everything goes as it should  :mmmh:  maybe if you give us an step by step of your procedure without missing a thing we coul help  :wink:[/quote]

That's exactly what i'm doing. Same guy, same animation. I can hardly believe my Poser 4 is doing something different that your Poser4.  I just tried it again, changing the leg length *before* and/or *after* adding the Lift_85 animation, and no difference--except that if you shorten his legs *after* applying the animation, you get white outlines of his shoes at ground level as you slide thru the animation. 

Use the slider to move through the animation, and have it rendering in real time (i.e. not a block figure), and watch the guy's feet.  They start up off the ground (because the legs are shortened), but move down to ground level as he squats down..... Feet moving vertically is simply wron.g


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turtlecroc
Wednesday, 03 February 2010, 09:11 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Okay, meant to add smiley--it's simply wrong!!  :stomp:


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Tormie
Wednesday, 03 February 2010, 09:47 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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[quote user="turtlecroc" post="41937"]Okay, meant to add smiley--it's simply wrong!!  :stomp:[/quote]

Oh, no problem, here is a slice of pizza for you :pizza: while the team is searching for a solution...


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rayera
Thursday, 04 February 2010, 12:01 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Maybe if you save your poser file and post it here, it should be small and I think it's not a copyright violation


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Tormie
Thursday, 04 February 2010, 01:07 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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I think there could be problems in that department ... :uuh: ... It's better if you contact each other privately...


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ahjah
Thursday, 04 February 2010, 11:34 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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:mmmh: I don't think, sharing a simple pz3 (without any geometry, i.e. hair or a prop with internal geometry) should be a problem. Technically it's the same as a cr2, just parameter settings for Poser...


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Tormie
Thursday, 04 February 2010, 06:03 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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I don't know for sure Andreas, I remember PZ3 and CR2 with geometries included, same as props... We should be careful: it's fine with me but be sure that is everything copyright free, that I'm not sure :mmmh: ... You know that there are some bad people lurking the site :ninja: ...


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rayera
Thursday, 04 February 2010, 11:07 PM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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I think we must do things in the right way  :ninja:  I'll try to find if sharing a PZ3 file has copyright material in it, I just sugested because I've seen some PZ3 shared in other places, just to mention Baginsbill has a P8 PZ3 that include primitives...  I'll try to find a good answer, because bisides of this case, it could be a great way to share some stuff, like scene set up


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tda42
Friday, 05 February 2010, 01:21 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Sometimes the PZ3 has some things missing in it. I have seen this before. Like when you conform a bit of clothing or texture. Sometimes they come up missing when used with other people and thier PC software. :mmmh:


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Lickitung
Tuesday, 09 February 2010, 07:53 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Hey Turtlecroc, welcome to PF!

I've actually got some character animation under my belt, in Maya, but I've found the principles are relatively the same as in Poser 4.

*cracks knuckles*

For the outline:  I've noticed in Poser that you're able to color the shadows independantly from the light source.  A white outline?  Is it like the bottom of his foot?  You'd be able to color that if it's his shadow.

For the movement troubles:  IK would actually have ALOT to do with this.  IK is actually a stupid process in that it all depends on how the 'skeletal' structure is set up.  IK is basically invisible bones in your figure that are manipulated to control the movement.  IK is useful in poser cause it really helps with 'cause and effect' type movement (pull a finger hard enough, the hand follows, with the arm attached. next thing you know, you're dragging a body by the finger).

How IK is stupid is it needs a 'root'  and Poser, with IK turned off, makes the hip the root.  The root can be thought of kinda like in those old gangster stories with the 'cement shoes' effect.  IK 'on' makes the roots into whatever you activate the IK on.  Move a body but not the root and you won't get far  :prrr: 

Long story short, IK off can cause the legs to move up, body to move down cause the hip root wasn't animated in the animation.  I believe that most the animations in Poser are made with the intent to have IK turned on, meaning they animated the foot roots.  

OR

It could stem from the changing porportions of the legs.  While you're changing the length of the legs, the range of motion and distance of movement in the animation is not changing. it'll stay the same.  Imagine a person clapping in a animation. lengthen the arms without adjusting the animation and suddenly the person's hands are going through each other!

Hope all this helps you out!  Welcome once again :3


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Lickitung
Wednesday, 10 February 2010, 03:01 AM

Re: Short-legged Figures In Poser [4]
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Turtlecroc,

I did some experimentation today...
That outline you're talking about on the feet is the root of the IK.  You do have IK on in your animation.  Think of it as the anchor of your figure.  You'll see this if the foot leaves the area of the root's geometry, it's main influence will usually be that the toes point towards the root if they aren't animated as well.  it's likely you won't see this happen in the animation cause most poser pz2's or BVH's ((I think that's the animation files for poser, not sure)) have info saved for every part of a figure's body.

I think the reason for your character's feet leaving the ground is the modified geometry.  Adjusting figure size or just leg space throws off the animations sync, if that's easier to understand.  A good way to see what I'm talking about is to look at the game Secondlife.

Secondlife allows Poser made animations to be imported for use in world.  However, making these means they're for a preset body size and premade proportions.  SL doesn't modify these when you put them on a differently proportioned avatar.  Hence the Aforementioned 'hands going through each other' for a clap.

Your best bet would be, before rendering, to adjust the animation.  I've yet to actually use Poser's animation function, but if it works the same as other animation programs, just cycle the animation to the frame where the foot is furthest from the ground, move it down and keyframe it there.  that should solve the problem unless Poser uses a wave model for animation movement... then it gets more complicated :/


