https://www.posetteforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1332
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Tormie
Sunday, 20 March 2005, 01:12 PM

The reasons for a removal
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Dear friends: this is another sad post about Den Tracy. This is a topic that I didn't like to face, because I hoped that saying to him that it would be better for himself and for PF to peacefully find or build another place where he can freely post his opinions could be enough with peace for all. But it hasn't happened, of course, so I decided to do something myself and with this post I'll try to explain why.

When you first registered you saw this phrase:

"[i]This site was conceived as an alternative, but not in competition with commercial sites/boards[/i]"

This means that this is a place to discuss about art, Posette & Dork, what we want, but it's not born against someone else site, product, firm or what else, infact in our gallery there is place for pictures made with commercial products, the only pact is that here no one can post link to commercial product or sites, we're "commercial free" and the site is payed only with my wages.

- We also have some rules: http://posetteforever.com/rules.php

You had to accept these rules in order to partecipate at the life of the community.

Now as long as there were no problems here, things went in a happy way, but when some problems appeared at the horizon, me, as the webmaster, had to apply some countermeasures with my own and only responsability.

Den Tracy left our community a lot of times, telling us how hard the 3d graphic world was against him, his characters etc.  

Some examples:

Fri Oct 15, 2004 

"[i]I walked away from Poser for nearly seven weeks. 
During that time, I realized that Poser is something that I can live 
without. With each passing day, I missed using it less and less until 
one day, I never thought about Poser again. [/i]"

Sat Oct 23, 2004

"[i]Anyway, when I resurfaced last week it was intended as a short visit. 
After my story finishes in a few days, I will again disappear.[/i]"


Sat Oct 30, 2004 

"[i]Two weeks have now passed. 
Time to say good-bye. [/i]"

These are post from his first "come back and leave again", and ok, bye Den, we'll miss you (again). In this period something appeared to happen to his attitude to Posetteforever (I've a personal opinion on why he changed attitude, but it's personal) and when he came back (again) he started to clearly attack two other members. As a result I considered that his decision to leave the site and his behaviour were not compatible with the role of administrator and moderator, I haven't considered this act as it was against "freedom of speech" but only a way to keep the debating users on the same level: if you're a moderator your task is to moderate not to throw gasoline on fire: if you do so, obviously you won't be anymore a moderator .

His reply was to ask me to remove the offending thread, I made it explaining the reason of the topic removal. In the meanwhile he started to edit his past messages, removing them or changing the contents, so that I was forced to remove his privileges to edit old posts in order to stop the "revisionism"...

Now, a consideration: 
There are places that I don't like on the net, my attitude with those sites is simple: I don't agree, I don't post there: I think that this is a fair attitude. Another kind of attitude would be to start a covert war against those sites and their owners: there would be three possible conseguences of this kind of attitude: 1- The site, sooner or later, will close, 2- The hostile user, sooner or later, will be banned -2 the first two things together.

When I perceived that this kind of situation was at the horizon I asked to the community's members their opinion about the closing of Posetteforever because I was not sure (and stil I'm not) to stand such kind of covert war.
Who PMed me said that they loved PF and that for a large part of them there is not another place where they post their art and messages. This was very touching for me, so I decided to do all I could to preserve the site against attacks.

What is a covert attack? For example the continuous search for lacks in the making and administration of the site:

At the end of January I started to use a new software for our album: I decided to make the install procedure clearly visible to the users: they couldn't post anything but they could see the work in progress. I informed all with "news messages" on the first page, messages in the shoutbox and PMs. The installation took less than one day. During this period the "What's wrong with the album ?" thread was started by Den Tracy... I explained him what was happening (even if I was sure that he knew exactly what was happening...) and his reply was to erase his whole pictures production from the album (three pictures, he erased his gallery a lot of times). Everyone can do this, but i consider it a clear sign of the dislike for the site and no consideration for the people who took the time for commenting the pictures.

You know, the album has cookies problems: as far as I know I resolved these problems user per user, that wasn't the case of Den Tracy, who replied, in the " I cannot make comments in the album section " thread started by his wife: "[i]I now have the same problem. I didn't have a problem until today. All OTHER sites work, no matter where I visit."[/i]
The obvious reply to such a post was "[i]go to those professional sites, if you need professionals, I'm only a noob[/i]".
Another covertly sarcastic reply and then I clearly said him that "[i]I'm tired of your continuous attempts to spread dirt on Posetteforever or coverly attack my work here[/i]".

I considered the "affair" finished, Den Tracy seemed to have happily landed to other sites and PF was in peace.

He came back (again) posting one of his comics, the only problem with this comic was that his description for Posetteforever was different from the description written under the same picture on other sites: here it was something like: "[i]Sorry friends, I [b][u]had to leave[/u][/b], this is an example of what I could post here[/i]", this phrase appeared only here, not at poserpros or planit3d for example, so my reply was simply to remove that phrase and paste there the same comment made for other sites, the right to do so is written in the rules of the site:

15- [i]Posts will be removed or edited at the discretion of either a forum moderator or administrator[/i].

His reply was the erasing of the picture.

My countermeasure was to add all users from the IP address of Den Tracy to a moderated list, it means that all the things or pictures that he would post here has to be first viewed and approved by me.

Yesterday I received two PMs from him and his wife, the most disturbing was the one from his wife who said:
"I[i] did not understand an email that I received a few weeks ago that started out with a "Hi honey" and congratulated me on being put on a moderators list of some kind. Den tells me that he received a similar email some time ago. 
I was not amused by the "Hi honey" [/i]"

The "[i]Hi Honey[/i]" is the standard Posy's greeting, I ever thought that it was a cute thing, very innocent and it is really innocent, you can see this greeting in each mail coming from the site.

My reply should be to say to those people once again: "if you don't like the site go elsewhere", but obvioulsy their purpose is another: continuos covert attacks to the site in order to disturb the community and convince other members to leave, and, yes, they are succeding in doing this. 

I'm bothered of this situation, I can honestly say to you all that I did all what I could to keep it peaceful, but I failed. The result of my fail [u]is the banning of the users[/u].

The reasons of the banning are the continuos violation of the forums rules, in particular:

7-  [i]Kindly treat others as you would like to be treated[/i]. 
8-  [i]PLEASE, NO FLAMING, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS, NO EXCESSIVELY ANGRY BEHAVIOR, NO SHOUTING[/i].
9-  [i]PLEASE, AVOID BEING RUDE, INTIMIDATING, CONFRONTATIONAL, SARCASTIC OR UNKIND, ESPECIALLY TOWARDS NEW MEMBERS[/i].
10- [i]PLEASE MAINTAIN YOUR DIGNITY & COURTESY[/i].
17- [i]Please coexist peacefully and respect every individual's "choice" of hardware, software, whatever on our forums site[/i].

My right to ban are in the rules too:

30- [i]We also reserve the right to ban any user, at any time, and for any reason[/i].
11- [i]We reserve the right to remove any account without any reason whatsoever[/i].


This is a sad thing for me, but I've not enough resources to watch over the site all the time and I know exactly that the ban is what Den Tracy wanted in order to moan once again. Can Posetteforever resist to those attacks? I don't know, I'll try. 

Some more things to say: Taking the role of the censor is not what I like, nevertheless the situation became unstandable for me and I had to do so mainly for my own, personal serenity. The obvious conseguence is that the site will appear less friendly to you all and I'm sorry for this. This is a little community with few members, in order for PF to be more democratic I would need dedicated moderators: I'm not saying that the actual staff members are inadeguate, but they are all volunteers: I can pretend nothing from them and because I can't pay for a staff I'm the only one who can take decisions and administrate this kind of "justice". This means that the "justice" here is a kind of medieval thing. But If there will be some users here that can help me to survey Den Tracy and take this responsability all the time please PM me and I'll remove the ban and give them the privileges for the survaillance.
I just can't do it myself because it is too much resources-consuming.

I know that Den tracy has a lot of friends here and you can find him and his art on sites like renderosity, poserpros, planit3d and so on. 

Please don't reply to this thread if you don't want to be involved in a "friend or foe" situation, if you've comments PM or email them to me.

Davide Clerici (Tormentor)


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Poserkatz
Monday, 21 March 2005, 03:16 AM


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At first: It's not my interest to became involved in a "friend or foe" - situation,
but if i have an opinion to a thematic, i will speak about. Therefore I don't need
PM, hidden email and so on.
I do this on my own risk, no problem to me.
The few things i have to say, anyone should have the possibility to read.
I think we are all adults, i think we all know, what it means to follow some
rules, especially rules, we have noticed and we have agreed with per signing up.

So i think to me: what would i do if i were Tormentor? The answer is short: I would do
exactly what he has doing.

1. Tormentor is the owner and pay money for.
2. He offers his sparetime to bring up a "advertisingfree" zone.
3. It's a private mission with a little help from some friends (shame on me that i don't have time to help as mod or similar, but i have my own projects)
4. He is a honor and PATIENT person i mean, he has waiting long long time before he did,
what he did - in my opinion it seems to me the only way to get peace here into this place.
5. To Tormentor directly: Don't hang down your head for sorrow, it's a great and IDEALISTIC
work you do here ( i know very well, what it means to become a programmer/webmaster and
so on to do things, you'd never done before) - only for the reason to make dreams come true.
And so i'm happy to share a little piece of your dream about a building of a frendship-community
as PF is. And I'm proud to be a member of this community.
6. Anyone who'll try to make places like this one bad, ugly, unfortanetely cannot be a friend of mine,
because i don't like those attacks against idealistic persons like Tormentor.
7. There are enough places to fight (big sites with lot of people and commerce and hypes), therefore
is no need to start attacks against small and lovely places.
8. If i don't like a place anymore, i leave, maybe without further comments/attacks/fight-words.

Finally i have to say, that i agree with Tormie.
And very last, if someone think now, that i'll be his enemy, i'll be his enemy, too  :bigrinnin: 
But i don't see reasons for that, lot of friends of mine have totally other opinions about themes
than myself - that's not a important question to me, importan to me is only "is it a fair game"?
between persons. I think, Tormie had play a very fair game - Den Tracey don't. That's all.

Poserkatz =;


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Posy
Monday, 21 March 2005, 05:19 AM


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What would you rather be doing? Look for it at the video store.


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TdaC
Monday, 21 March 2005, 06:37 AM


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Davide i agree with Gp and Poserkatz. I understand that this was a difficult dicision but i think that you did the right thing. I suport your decision:)


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Tormie
Monday, 21 March 2005, 08:56 AM


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:crybaby:  :crybaby:  :crybaby: 

Thank you friends... As I said there's no need to take a side in what has happened. I understood to have waited too long for this decision and my hesitation probably caused a bad feeling around the site.
I suggested a lot of times to him to find another place and I suggeted him exactly what to do in order to build a new one (it's not a very difficult thing to open a basic forum), but it was useless.

I thought a lot about "the right to speak", also in a larger perspective and my own, personal opinion is that the "right to speak" or "right to do" is a beautiful thing, but become very expensive and resources hungry when an user become hostile or "covertly hostile". An example: the continuous surveillance on the user, I could do it if I would have a lot of money and no need to go to work, or enough money to pay a team to do so. I've to say that just before going to my mother's home in the weekend I saw the first shout in the shoutbox written by him so I passed the weekend with my parents in a bad mood, I couldn't sleep and on Sunday morning I jumped in my car and came back here to see what's happened this time...
I couldn't say to an admin or a moderator to do the survey for me when I'm absent for the simple reason that I don't pay anyone, so I can only suggest, not order: I can't say to a Den's friend to survey what he does...
The democracy needs a lot of people who take decisions, a Senate, Courts of Justice etc. , we are a little community, so I said that the justice here, unfortunately, is a sort of a medieval thing: the owner of the castle decides.
Please don't be hungry against him, probably he has his own personal problems like the problems everyone have and you can find him and his art on other sites.


So this was my decison, bad or good, with its conseguences, I know it.


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JanReinar
Monday, 21 March 2005, 01:25 PM


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I make mine Thilda words! All of us are your friends Davide  :heartbeat: and we will suport your decision! :)


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Ozymandias Jones
Thursday, 24 March 2005, 02:07 PM


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Hey, you're the boss! It's not always easy, and sometimes it's a real bastard of a job. 

I admire you for sticking with it  :)


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Tormie
Thursday, 24 March 2005, 07:35 PM


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Thank you friends, anyway I said that there's nothing personal against Den Tracy, so no sides to take, I don't want that he will consider you as enemies so please take the time to remove your comments, it was my own responsability...


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Poserkatz
Thursday, 24 March 2005, 11:13 PM


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Nice and honor idea, Tormie -
but my posting i won't delete.
I have absolute no fear what
Den is thinking about me.
 :)


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guiltypleasures
Thursday, 24 March 2005, 11:42 PM


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I have deleted mine, but not due to any fear from anyone, just because I don't want Davide to have to worry about any other problems that might arise out of this thread. I"m wasn't and still am not taking any sides to this issue, only voiced my thoughts on it all. I think we're all adults here (well most of the time lol) and I believe this is a good site and all the people here seem to care about each other as well as PosetteForever and we  will all get passed all this silly stuff and just be what we were before... Friends :)

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Misfits must band together, if they're ever going to take over the world  :bigrinnin:  :dancing:


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Tormie
Thursday, 24 March 2005, 11:54 PM


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I agree with you Rene  :bigrinnin: ! It's time to think to other things  :) ! I said to delete the posts but I haven't noticed that there are no permissions to do so  :oops:  :oops:  :oops: . I made it for you and fixed the permissions (I hope  :-k  :-k  :-k )


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tda42
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:35 AM


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Hey I just walked in and noticed there where no adults here! :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao: 
Silly me what was I thinking. You know I get no respect. Why just last week my brother came by my house and asked me if I wanted to go hunting? I said sure I'm game. He shot me!  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:


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Tormie
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:40 AM


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8-[ !

Who has stolen my ball :cry: ?


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guiltypleasures
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:51 AM


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:lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  Kenny you should have went into Comedy you got a nak for it my boy, a real nak  :bigrinnin: 

<psst Kenny, here take this b    a   l     l     and find a good hiding spot for it, Tormies been looking all over the place for it today. 8-[   I keep telling him to sew up that whole in his pants but he's too lazy and Posy won't touch them until he washes them  [-(  :whistle:  :bigrinnin:


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Posy
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:51 AM


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Ah. "it" being Rene?


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Visitor
Friday, 25 March 2005, 03:01 AM


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:lmao:  :lol:  :lmao: Let's go hunting again! 8-[


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rayera
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:35 PM


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I don't know what Den Tracy did, but I want to say something:
Sometime ago, in the page of "THE LEADER 3D CONTENT PROVIDER", in the Bryce forum of this page, somebody with clear difcults to express in english (allmost like me :) ) asked something like this: WERE CAN I BUY BRYCE FREE, I'M FROM A POOR COUNTRY, when I read the replys I get so disapointed, were about 20 post making fun of the request, somebody sayed GET OUT FROM HERE, IN THIS COMMNITY WE DON'T LIKE PEOPLE DOING ILEGAL THINGS, GET OUT!!!, other I'M POOR, CAN SOMEBODY GIVE ME A NEW CAR FOR FREE, of course a lot of funny emoticons in all post, of all the reply, only one, just only one sayed BRYCE IS A COMERCIAL PRODUCT, YOU MUST PAY FOR IT, BUT THERE ARE GREAT FREE APLICATIONS LIKE BLENDER, TERRAGEN, OR EVEN HERE A POSER SIMILAR PROGRAM NOW IN DEVELOPMENT... (you can imagin what page I'm talking about), the reply wasn't from the staff or moderator from the page, I think all replys were a total lack of respect to somebody who clearly had dificults to express himself in english, and to his economical condition, allmost like saying "You are poor Ja Ja!!", and the stuff did nothing against it, not even a Call to atention to the posters, (and that is a comercial page with payed people for his work to be done)...  I never saw this kind of behavior here at PF, and I'm shure I will never see it, this is a small comunity, because it is full of good people, and there is not a lot of good people around the world  :heartbeat: , and because Tormentor is a good guy that give us this place, that's why I think you won't take wrong desitions if  must be done to keep the peace here, You are a great guy Tormentor  :clap:  , sorry for posting a little late  :oops:  :oops: 
(and don't make fun of my english ) :bad-words:  :bigrinnin:


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Tormie
Friday, 25 March 2005, 01:54 PM


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:blush: :blush: :blush: Oh. don't worry for you english, mine is very, very bad  :oops: , Anyway I can understand a lot of spanish without having studied it  :bigrinnin: !

About the behaviour you talked about it's the kind of sarcastic reply that I don't like, one can joke but he/she can't offend with sarcasm or stating that he/she is superior, it's unfair...


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rayera
Friday, 25 March 2005, 02:52 PM


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Well spanish and Italian are latin derivated lenguages, We could speak in latin :)  :)
I was just joking I won't get mad if somebody make fun of my english, because I know I have a lot of mispels, (shame on me because I attended to an English academy, of course I didn't end it) an American once told me that I speak english better than I write it, I'm not quite shure, anyway I agree with you joking is joking and sarcasm is ugly


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guiltypleasures
Friday, 25 March 2005, 04:40 PM


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rayera, you are right, I've also seen people (on a site I won't mention) do this and it makes me sad too. I know if I were to go onto a site that was in your language or any language that wasn't my own I would hate to think that people were only laughing at me and wouldn't try and help me.  (Tormie, you no we don't laugh at your english, only your farts  :bigrinnin: ) 
I am glad to be in the company of people from all over the world here, because I am always learning new things and also see that everyone is the same really, no matter where we are from, we're all people with likes, dislikes, we love we feel pain, we can be hurt,  inside we're all alike  :)  America is a melting pot of all types of people from all over the world, yet I find I have learned more about people of different cultures and countries here than I ever have off the computer. :)


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Poserkatz
Friday, 25 March 2005, 07:22 PM


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If i would laugh about your english, rayera,
i have to laugh out louder about my english  :bigrinnin:


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Visitor
Friday, 25 March 2005, 09:09 PM


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I too have seen far too much of that sort of reactions.  It is not just the result of languages but even just different subcultures or ideas.  Or even a percieved difference in thinking.

For example, I am now being treated in a similar style.  I posted "Stand for inspection" in several galleries as I have done wiht my other pictures.  One of the sites being PoserPros.  The picture recieved a comment, that I replied to, in what I thought of as a resonable way.  Now that person has posted an insulting ad homin comment.  Why do people on he loosing side of debate fallback on insults so often?  Sheesh!

Pangor


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Tormie
Friday, 25 March 2005, 11:18 PM


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Oh, don't care too much of bad comments pangor, they are not well for the mood... At poserpros there is the "ignore" button, just use it... Don't waste your spirit with those people. As I said at PP he doesn't know you so he couldn't express an informed opinion. Sometimes happens to me too with people who say me that I put a too big hand in the picture...  :lmao: ...


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Visitor
Saturday, 26 March 2005, 01:01 AM


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You mean that they don't like your selfportraits?   :-s

There are some people who don't know of your work yet like the idea.  The other day,  s_stone777 posted a picture in Renderosity of a large male hand holding an eyeball.  First thing I thought of was "Hey Tormentor!  You are making a guest appearance?  And without Posy what will she say?".  I didn't write that comment because I didn't know if she would have understood the comment, but now I am going to write it any way and send her an IM explaining the comment.

Thanks
Pangor


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Posy
Saturday, 26 March 2005, 01:01 AM


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I am not making this up. "Without your space helmet Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult" -- HAL.


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Tormie
Saturday, 26 March 2005, 01:25 PM


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[quote]
"Without your space helmet Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult" 
[/quote]
 8-[  8-[  8-[ I've only an old bike's helmet *sigh*


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Visitor
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 01:58 PM


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I have an (not very good) idea. 8-[ why don't make a topic where everybody will write a sentence in his/her native language and the others will try to guess what it means without any attempt to make fun and I guess we all will learn something new.  :oops: (If you didn't understand what I wrote it is because of my teriible english  ](*,) even the other students make fun of it  :oops: ) Now I understand what my father means by saying : "If you know a foreing language there is another diffrent world open to you" Even if we don't understand what others write or we can't express something there are lots of emoticons  :bigrinnin:  :bigrinnin: so don't  8-[  , be  :toothy7:  :greenjumpers:  :toothy4:


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Visitor
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 02:02 PM


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[quote]
If you didn't understand what I wrote it is because of my[color=red] teriible[/color] english
[/quote]

Ooops!  :oops:  How could I write "terrible " that way  #-o  there is a same word in french ](*,)  #-o  ](*,) 
(I'm making fun of my own teRRible english  :bigrinnin: )


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Tormie
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 02:11 PM


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:bigrinnin: Good idea erenda ! We made something similar with the translations of "fart" some times ago :oops:  :oops:  :oops:


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Visitor
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 04:39 PM


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By the way "purdia " means fart in bulgarian :bigrinnin:   There was an poem " An ode to farting" in bulgarian I'll post it when I translate it  :bigrinnin:  :bigrinnin:  :bigrinnin:  8-[


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Visitor
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 05:08 PM


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Now there is one topic that I had not thought that there had been any poetry written about!   :lmao: 

Pangor


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Tormie
Sunday, 27 March 2005, 05:12 PM


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We are waiting !  :bigrinnin: !! :wickedfart: :fart:  :sick:  :sick:  :sick:


